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Post by vern on May 27, 2007 9:30:33 GMT
These are excellent posts that are thought provoking. I agree with Shadwells mega post, in that, EBFC is still a closely guarded secret, in a Royston Vasey style. Eastbourne residents must surely be targeted by our Marketing to inform them of what the Club has achieved to date and the quality of the live football, only being bettered by BrightonHA and Crawley in Sussex, and their must be a lot of football fans in amongst this local population. It's not like hayes and Yeading that have far better footy teams on their doorstep in West London, poor sods! We have no quality football teams in Sussex to compete with, really.
EBFC are victims of their own success, and I'm sure they are aware of this inescapable fact. As you achieve more then more is expected to keep all fans interested and to not go stale. We don't have a real hardcore of fans so as Town ascend the pyramid Boro need to press on and excite fans with the next ambitious goal / target. To press on means pushing the Gate through the 1000+ barrier. How do they do this? They need to, IMO, ensure that all Saturday Home games are played and that none are postponed - so the pitch needs to be dependable. Drilling - digging holes in the pitch will not sort the fundamental potential flooding issue. The compacted earth is like concrete and no water can pass through to the drains - so without an overhaul and pitch renewal program, the Committee must be concerned what the Winter holds in store. The re-commencement of the Reserves is great news, but it is a shame that the Sussex County FA will not allow the Reserves to play at a higher level, as is allowed in neighbouring County Leagues. SUssex FA really needs to atart helping its Sussex football sides as opposed to handicapping them. I guess, in conclusion, we'll have to sit back and await the news from the Sports, that will tell us how we are going to cope with the new wave of potential Play Off teams, with impressive set ups, that are going to push us all the way next season. It appears that their will be no weak sides.
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Post by shadwellarmy on May 27, 2007 14:52:15 GMT
There will be weak sides next season - the new Hayes/Yeading team, Bath, Lewes (only joking you lurking Lewes fans - we know you're out there!), Fisher and several others. The Southern Division looks like it is splitting into two - the well-organised 'big' clubs, and the smaller ones just making up the numbers. EBFC could be part of either end of the division - our three years at this level have seen us make the play-off final, struggle against relegation, and just miss out on the play-offs, plus have a brilliant FA Cup run (in the bad season) and go out at Haverhill (in the good)!
Are EBFC good enough to be amongst the big teams of the division? Of course they are! I would say that Taity is one of the three best strikers in the division (and, Rambo apart, all other strikers at the club have the potential to be in the top ten with a little more experience), in the Wilde Man and Crabby we hav ethe two best number elevns in the division (and possibly the one above, as well), Jay and Marc are certainly two of the divisions best players, and we have the best defence, as a unit, bar none. As has been said before, our team is one of the best going, quite capable of playing a division higher and, with only three or four new (quality and experienced) faces, plus a couple of lads with good potential to make up the numbers, I believe they could play two divisions higher - that is, in League Two (probably one of the weaker teams there, but they could do it), so long as they could go full-time, along with the manager/coach and so forth. But with our size of squad, and relatively poor resources for treating injuries (and knowing that we will be losing a few players to red cards for important matches, as a few players have, shall we say, anger management problems - mentioning no names, and certainly not Duncan Disorderly or Jenko!), we would probably struggle in the Blue Square Premiership, through no fault of the team themselves.
Our ground is suitable for promotion, bar a few cosmetic improvements, and our fan base is strong. Yes, it should be at 1,000+, but we are consistantly the fourth or fifth best supported team in the Conference South, so let's not get too upset about the numbers coming through the turnstiles. We have excellent local support, a fantastic social side and community side to the club (better than any other club at this level, better than nearly all clubs at higher levels, better than any other local club bar none, and awards to prove it) and we have a fantastic youth squad. Ask any Hastings fan about EBFC - they are all jealous of our set-up and our success, and wonder why they can't match it, especially as, over the last five years, they have had a lot more cash to play with.
So let's not be too negative - the club has done wonderful things on a shoestring budget, and is still 100% solvent (so far as I know); better than most clubs at this level or higher.
But we have been victims of our own success. Things have gone well, we have ridden our luck a few times, we have had a fantastic history on the field (where it really counts) and with our ground (where it shows), but, along with quite a few others, it seems, I feel that we have gone about as far as we can without some sweeping changes. I think that changes are going to be inevitable soon, either to take us forward or, in a worse case scenario, our good luck will run out, we'll suffer a couple of vital injuries in the mid-season and end up relegated and then changes will be forced and rushed, which cannot be good for the club. Much better that they are done in a quiet and sensible manner.
Maybe changes are taking place - I don't know, and that is part of the problem. The club certainly has a culture of playing things close to their chests, and only making announcements when it is all done and dusted. Not making rash promises is all well and good, but taking it to extremes makes supporters feel like mushrooms - kept in the dark and fed manure. And the emotional and OTT response from the club to quite mild critisism on the forum was so ridiculous and immature that it beggered belief.
But remember all the good things the club has achieved, which are legion. The top club in East Sussex, the number two non-league club in Sussex, if not the South East of England outside of London, and all on a tiny budget. Yes, I think things need to change, but it is much easier to critisise than it is to change things. All I have been able to suggest are ways of spending more money, and not ways of getting more money into the club! With the same level of support and commercial revenue, my ideas would probably bankrupt the club in two years, so if I am ignored I will not be too upset!
Yes, I have ideas for improving revenue, but they are all general and vague, and may, or may not, work.
At the risk of seeming to change my colours, I would say that we are, in general, agreed that the pitch situation has brought management problems to the surface (along with several inches of rain-water), and that if we are to progress as a club, these issues need to be addressed. However, the way forward from here has to be to support the management team, acknowledge the great things that they have done for the club, not push them into a corner or try to force rapid changes, and, in return, get some more information from the club, maybe get a Supporter Director who can sit in on meetings and report back (what is not commercially sensitive or in confidence, of course) through this forum and the main website, get supporters more involved, and produce a document on what is going on, now, in the past and in the future - as well as a simplified financial plan.
While I would certainly want the management to come out with better communications and a good forward stategy, I would also like fans to start to 'put up or shut up' - come out with specific ideas and proposals, or restrict themselves to questions and constructive critisism. I think this is pretty much what has gone on so far, but I get the feeling that it could quickly degenerate into simple management abusing and mud slinging.
Finally, if you think my posts about EBFC are long rants, just don't get me started on the bloomin French!
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Post by Jim "Convertedeagle" Stewart on May 27, 2007 21:34:01 GMT
This taken from the Official website, dated may25th
Pitch: Work started today on the pitch for the 2007/2008 season. The whole pitch has been 'scarified' to remove dead grass and 'thatch' from the playing surface. The pitch has also been re-seeded and work will progress over the weekend to 'dress' the pitch with a high sand content / soil mixture to improve the playing surface and high level drainage with further activity to continue throughout the close season.
Guess it shows there is some work being undertaken... and that was the initial topic of this thread!! ;D
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Post by silverfox on May 28, 2007 17:27:26 GMT
Whooppee do. So the club are raking the grass, chucking some seed down, and top dressing. This is what I do to my lawn at home. How stupid do the club think we are??
"Our supporters are wondering what we are doing to stop the waterlogging, lets tell them we are doing some cosmetic work and then they will all stop moaning and go and buy season tickets so they can look at the green grass in August"
So what is being done to improve the infrastucture? Have the club forgotten already just how embarrasing these postponements were, how the resulting cash flow problems seriously impaired the running of the club? As vern said, there was severe compaction, vertidraining and digging big holes is not going to solve the problem. We know it will not because we have done it before! I understand the club obtained three independant reports/surveys of the problem. Now tell me, which one was it suggested that just tarting it up will stop it flooding. I reckon it was the one from Noddy.
I suspect that the dressing sand came from Parker Building Supplies served up in different sized buckets within which various people now have their heads firmly planted.
All a bit of a worry really.
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Post by shadwellarmy on May 29, 2007 17:54:29 GMT
But we still have the basic problem of not having the cash to do the proper work needed, and without the cash, it is very difficult to see what can be done. I'll say again, that the pitch problems have highlighted structural problems at EBFC, the low-risk and high-confidentiality culture at the club prevent any real news filtering down (neither problem being addressed, or even considered, so far as can be seen), but as concerns the playing surface, what can, in fact be done, with near zero money and volunteer resources?
Without access to additional financial/profesional resources (which would only come as a result of a structural change at the club, and at some risk, neither of which looking likely to occur), we really just have to hope that we don't have a wet winter and that the club play as well as they did last season, giving us a breathing space and, hopefully, time to gather the funds needed, via the turnstiles.
Of course, we could take a lot of risks, change the club structure and still not have enough money to do anything! I think this will end up as a 'told you so' situation, where if we have to postpone a dozen games this season, those who can be broadly described as 'anti present set up' will be able to tell everyone that we predicted it, it has cost the club it's chance at promotion and so forth, and if we get a clement December, the 'pros' will be able to bask in their wisdom of not raiding the club piggy-bank for no benefit.
The underlying problems are likely to remain, regardless.
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kent
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Post by kent on May 30, 2007 16:27:29 GMT
Ahh Silverfox, we can always depend on your pointless criticism! I very rarely comment on this forum, but i find myself compelled to reply to your rant about the club belonging "to one person" and "its his ball and nobody else can play" What a childish arguement!! .Iam taking the assumption that you are talking about Mr Smith. Perhaps you should take the time to read the history of the club, Mr Smith (who is not the most argeeable person granted) has steered the club from strength to strength financially for nigh on 30 years! many of the people involved in the start are still involved very much indeed so I would say that it was quite a few "peoples ball" and they playing with it the best they can! Our club Mr Silverfox is commitee run and like it or not we have to trust their decisions ,they only have the cubs best intrests at heart and I say heart because after reading the book thats obviously where theirs lie. Buy the book its fantastic and you'll be able pay towards pitch mantainance ,new players, payed groundsman, more commercial agents etc etc etc blah blah ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
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Post by goonerboy on May 30, 2007 19:34:39 GMT
look we can,t afford to spend a fortune on the pitch as we don,t have it. what with the traffic island we have to build in priory rd and the rent increase, perhaps some of the loud mouths would like to offer there services to the club as a small few do a lot of work for nothing ..
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len
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Post by len on Jun 1, 2007 6:53:48 GMT
Just been passed a copy of various posts on pitch, club, news, etc.
Although obviously pleased that Silverfox, Vern, Shadwellarmy , etc. have taken so much time and thought into their posts, disappointed by some of the content.
Club are accused of not letting supporters know what is going on, yet when we write a couple of pages in programme we are condemned for it. We do have a policy of posting regular information on club website as well as forums (where we are available to answer anything thrown at us), but some information is by neccessity held back for various commercial and other reasons. e.g. the Hastings Friendly Fixture which we were holding back for two reasons, 1, so that all friendlies could be announced at same time when confirmed and 2, important details of this match are yet to be confirmed.
I will not attempt to comment on all the suggestions made on this forum but am more than willing to do so at the next forum (date yet to be set), but will comment on a couple.
To suggest that we need full time professionals and that the present committee is not up to it is an insult to myself and my committee colleagues. How many other clubs have had the success and promotions up the pyramid in such a short time. It is the quality of the people that matters not whether they are paid. I give an example, I along with all other committee members work for nothing. Recently during a routine inspection of our books by the revenue, the inspector suggested that someone in my position, doing the hours and work I do would expect to be paid at least £40,000 a year. To do this would mean cutting the playing budget by £1,000 per week, how would this make things better? This would be made even worse if the rest of the committee were paid (their are at least three others who work at least as many if not more hours than me). May I also correct a couple of posts, Lorna, our Commercial Manager is full-time. Yes, Robbie is a volunteer groundsman (who has been recognised by several awards for his pitch and our being picked to host England games) but he also has the use of a part-time paid qualified groundsman.
It has also been suggested that we are afraid of borrowing and should go to the bank for a loan. Here are my thoughts on that. To boost the playing budget this coming season by say £1,000 per week would need a loan of £40,000. Next season we would need that £40,000 playing budget again and at the same time would need £45,000 to pay off the loan, where would the £85,000 come from?
I look forward to answering the other points at the next forum and hopefully a few of you interested posters will put yourself forward at the next Club AGM for a position on the committee.
Len Smith
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Post by vern on Jun 1, 2007 9:48:40 GMT
It's is great that you, Len, have responded to the concerns that have been posted on here. I can speak for myself and am not a mouthpiece for all posters that have contributed on this thread. However, the condition of the pitch is a worry. The flanks were retaining water and the drains remained dry. How does the Club overcome this effectively, I came down when the pitch was being investigated and helped to dig the areas above the drains, so myself, and I'm sure others, are trying to offer assistance if assistance is needed. It is not all hot air on here. It is a real concern. If I didn't think that I'd get tarred and feathered I'd be interested in helping further, but I thought the Committee i.e. Lee Peskett and all were in situ and doing a good job. OK, I'll raise my head above the parapet, I think that all the contributors on this thread, that i'd guess get along to as many Boro games as is possible, are passionate about The Sports and realise that those on the Committee are even more passionate and in it for the long term come good times and bad. However, news trickles out of the Club; I found the Hastings game on the Hastings United website. But, also appreciate that the volunteers have full time jobs and families too. So the Boro website appears slow. I don't think being facetious about the Club helps, I got somewhat frustrated with Garry and Nick in the poor season that we had in 2005 / 6 and my then negative comments, I learnt, didn't help anyone. I am interested to know how is the Eastbourne Borough Council planning to assist its tennant EBFC? Why can't it use some of its resources, i.e. Devonshire Park Tennis Groundsman to assist Robbie, if we can't use a part time professional Groundsman, as Bognor Regis FC do? I think my biggest frustration was that in the final analysis is that it wasn't the players who couldn't go all the way to Blue Square Premier, it was the poor pitch that flooded early season and prevented Saturday games from being played thereby asking far too much of the team at the end of the season. How does EBFC ensure that this doesn't get repeated? I hope that my contribution on here is not seen as flipant or as a nuisance. I want to get another season ticket this coming season and attend as many games Home and Away to support the lads and to see Eastbourne Borough FC put further on to the footballing map. But, to get so far, again, and then too fail, not through any weakness on the part of our players performing on the pitch but by the quality of the soil beneath it? I want to see us move on and up again to the more serious football in the next League up. In all seriousness, has the Club got the ambition to do it next season?
The irony is that the annoying hot air on here is made by those that attend most games, and really care what happens next, I'd guess. It is those fair weather fans that don't really care, that don't post on here and don't really care what happens next; they get off lightly, they don't attend games if we lost our last game or if it's a mid-week game!! or if Chelsea and Man Utd are playing on Sky and in the end remain anonymous and safe.
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Post by stubbs on Jun 1, 2007 12:11:18 GMT
I have read all the posts on here about the pitch and lack of information from the club together with the comments about the future. I think the true problem possibly lies with the league and its administrators as Boro are being asked to compete against clubs who are not run on a financially sound basis and where their financial position is precarious at best and in some instances downright insolvent. These clubs spend money way above their means and surely it would be far better for the league to insist as part of membership of the league that the day to day running costs of the club including playing budgets must come from football club income and not from rich directors or unsupportable loans. At least that way Boro might have a chance to compete on a level playing field. If someone wants to put money into a club then the league should insist that this money is used to upgrade facilities at the ground and perhaps support a youth academy. There is also so much money in the professional game that it is about time some was filtered down to the non league grass roots football at all levels, again for ground improvements and young players. Clubs would then be in a better position to seek grants from the football authorities as they would have funds that could be matched. What about if every Premiere League player donated 1 weeks salary(Mind you not many of them would do this for the nurses so fellow players/clubs stand no chance). Until such time as the league is prepared to police club finances properly then Boro will suffer because they operate on a sound financial basis being well run by a team of dedicated 'volunteers' who give up their time for free. I know how they feel having been involved as a 'volunteer' for many years just how much time can be taken up and often those on the outside cannot always understand the various pressures on time that the commitment makes particularly if you work full time and away from the local area. As to the comments about part time supporters I feel this was a little unfair as with so many games being switched to midweek last season I for one was unable to attend as I work in London and don't get back to Bexhill until well after kick off time and leaving any earlier than normal rush hour means leaving mid afternoon because of train times. Even a start time of 8.15pm rather than 7.45 might give some of us a better chance to attend evening matches. I do think that under current circumstances Boro may well have reached as far as they can in the pyramid and unless the league forces other clubs to behave in a financially sound manner as is the position at Boro then there will be little chance I feel of Boro taking the next step. From a financial standpoint there will always be clubs willing to buy short term success on the pitch at the expense of sound financial management (Weymouth for example) This is a great shame because I do feel that given the right circumstances on the playing side (no serious injuries to players and a reliable playing surface) that Boro could make the next step up however they would struggle as I have said financially and this could lead to their demise.
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Post by goonerboy on Jun 1, 2007 18:10:12 GMT
well im very pleased that len put some things straight about the pitch on this forum. hopefully that will quieten down the people conserned..i personally like to help the club by sponsering a players kit for a season at £35 and will do so next year again so put your money where your mouth is and support our club. i for one are lost on a saturday afternoon now the seasons over and can,t wait for the pre season friendlys to start....up the boro
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Post by Jim "Convertedeagle" Stewart on Jun 1, 2007 22:59:42 GMT
I would also like to commend Len for coming on to the forum and posting his reply. I also was very impressed with his interview in fridays Herald and the fact that new ideas have been forthcoming as to the extent of work needed to the pitch and the fact that he and the committee have manged to save laying out a great deal of cash in respect of the playing surface.
I think this proves that although we have heard nothing through official lines , the club are still very actively seeking the solutions needed without the drastic steps of finacially crippling loans etc ...
Once again, it proves that a well organised committee of volunteers far outweighs a board of directors!!!
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Post by shadwellarmy on Jun 2, 2007 15:26:04 GMT
Many thanks for the reply Len, greatly appreciated, but I would like to make one or two comments.
1) I don't think anyone has suggested that the volunteers at the club, especially the groundsman, are not up to the job, nor insulted them. Nor ignored the great afforts made by them, and many others, in getting the club where it is now, nor the great achievement that that has been. The points made have all been variations on the theme that if the club is to progress to a higher level of football, then a more professional set-up will be needed (in fact, it would happen anyway, at least in part, as it is a requirement for National status). Using the word 'professional' is certainly not meant to imply that current volunteers are inept, useless or incompetant - simply that someone employed full-time, dedicating themselves to their job full-time must, by simple definition, be able to bring more effort and involvement than someone else who has to juggle jobs, family life and so forth around their committment. 'Professional' was used by me to refer to full-time, dedicated staff, not suggesting and greater natural ability by alternative staff.
2) I think that everyone can agree that we all want what is best for the club. I think we can agree that we are all EBFC supporters (season ticket, EBFCSC member in my case). And (I hope) we are all looking for the best for the club for the future. Yes, we have got here by volunteer effort, and, as I have put in an earlier post, this is a great strength for the club, and we have a set-up which is the envy of many other local clubs. The point is that, although comming from different angles, several of us feel that the current structure is likely to fail if the club continues to grow. And, as I have also said along with others, we realise that there are financial constraints which stop us from doing everything that we would like. As others have said, with the present set-up, Boro look like they may have reached the highest position which they are capable of; personnally, I think we are capable of promotion, but that it could result in major problems if we do go up. Boro have been an amazingly successful club, and are a real example to ambitious clubs in the Ryman and such like of how to do things. But could you honestly expect Chelsea (or even a fairly pointless Premier club, like the Wet Sham, for instance) to have a similar set-up? Volunteer staff and so forth? They would be bankrupted within a season. OK, we are not in the Premier League, nor anything like it. But neither are we a junior Ryman League standard outfit anymore. We need to decide which of these two directions is the one we are hoping to move in, and adjust accordingly. And part of that adjustment may include changing the club policy on taking risks.
3) Club communications are poor. Nearly everyone (apart from the club) agrees on this. They were great when the club only existed in Langney and everyone knew each other and met regularly over a pint, and they are poor for where we are now. And I don't think anyone has said a bad word (nor would say) about the club putting a couple of pages of information in the program. The bad words were about two pages of inaccurate, slightly hysterical, and very insulting abuse aimed at genuine, paying supporters who had asked questions about the pitch. Posters from other clubs' making insulting posts, jokey comments and genuine questions were all lumped together as 'so-called 'supporters'' and had abuse heaped on them, suggestions were ridiculed (including insulting someone for asking about a rain-protection tarpaulin, saying how this had not been suggested by any of the experts that had been consulted - strangely, one was rolled up beside the pitch two games later!). If I posted on the forum talking about our 'so-called 'volunteers'' and the club committee not having the courage to make public statements or write letters to all supporters explaining whatever I had a bee in my bonnet about, I would, quite rightly, have abuse heaped upon my head. Especially if I quoted selectively, including quotes from other clubs claiming these were the views of the volunteers/committee, and completely failed to understand the media that had been used originally. Comment is fine - hysterical, immature and abusive ranting is something else, especially when it is put forward as official club policy.
In summary, I would agree with 95% of what Len said - there are risks in borrowing (and I am far from sure that this is the best way forward, but it is one way and is worthy of discussion), the club has done very well in the past, the volunteers and club officials are respected and deserve to be so, and simply throwing money at a problem is not, necessarily, going to solve it.
However, what wasn't mentioned is just as important. This thread has transformed from complaining about the pitch to expressing genuine concerns that the structure that has served the club so well in the past may not be capable of serving so well in the future, and asking for vague, and not really thought-out, changes to be made. No-one has asked for resignations, nor demanded a specific policy change, but a feeling that more (and more accurate) communication is needed and a review of the clubs' attitude to risk, investment and full-time staffing could do with being reviewed.
And no, so far as I am aware, no-one has claimed to have the solution to all the clubs problems, but airing grievances is, in part what these forums are about (and talking of grievances, I think that the new layout of the EBFC website is horrible and off-putting - but if more, and more timely, information is put onto it, I'll be quite happy).
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len
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Post by len on Jun 3, 2007 16:37:47 GMT
Shadwellarmy
Regards 'professional' meaning 'full time' rather than 'part-time'. Perhaps supporters including yourself are not aware, that the Chairman, Vice-Chairman and COE of the club although unpaid, work in excess of 40 hours per week for the club and are therefore already full-time. This along with a number of others who contribute 20 hours or more and our paid staff would point to us already deserving of the adjective 'professional'.
Len
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Post by SHABBA! on Jun 5, 2007 11:08:25 GMT
indeed the people who work at boro are full time all the people who are down there during the week there all full time the only people who are not full time are the players and still they train so so hard all the time.
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Post by silverfox on Jun 5, 2007 12:34:31 GMT
Ok my turn!! There seems to be a certain amount of martyrdom going on here. As Vern said, no one was questioning the efforts of the committee and no one questioned the hours they put in, BUT they don't have to do it and as far as I am aware they enjoy it. So lets put that to bed.
The club don't seem to be able to face the main point of these threads, whether it be the pitch, the groundsman, the team or the management.
What is really being questioned is this. Have we reached as far as we are able, have we reached as far as the club want to go, is there any ambition, drive and commitment to go any further? If the answer is that we want to be promoted to the conference then the question we all have is what and where are the plans to achieve this?
Why should the paying supporters believe anything will be any different next year? How are the club going to fire up Eastbourne to ensure new supporters flood through the turnstiles, how is the team going to improve, how will we stop the rain, etc etc.
And finally, I have to agree with previous posters, the new website had better be informative because aesthetically it is appalling. I know I will get slagged off for saying this, and yes I know loads of hard work goes into these things but it looks like it was bought from Asda instead of Waitrose!!!
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Post by sam on Jun 11, 2007 22:03:57 GMT
Have I missed something here? We have facilities envied by many and a team that narrowly missed out on play-offs. We are one of the best supported clubs in the division and what we have achieved over the last few years has been nothing short of remarkable. We are not financially dependent on any one person and have a commercial section which is continuing to grow. The only negative issue as far as I can see is the pitch. That is being dealt with. I'm sure Len had many sleepness nights when the cash flow was hit by last seasons cancellations and is doing all that is necessary to make sure it does not happen again. I can't see any basis for criticising the current structure and set up in place - their record is second to none. Personally I wouldn't like anything to change in terms of the way the club is being run other than more appreciation from some supporters that what we have achieved and will achieve has been done on a budget far less than most. As for lack of information as far as I can see the club comment when there is something concrete to comment on. Nobody can expect the club to comment on every rumour or story that goes around.
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